Vic: We welcome you to this next series of discussions about Isaiah. This round table series is about the writings of Isaiah and is found in the Bible and in the book of Mormon. I have three colleagues with me here today. As we start our discussion. We have Terry (?), who is one of our junior members as we call him on our faculty, seasoned though he is, Ann Madsen well known, with many students who have been in her Isaiah classes and Ray Huntington, a great scholar of the scriptures. Welcome, glad to have you here with us today. We’re scheduled today to start with chapters 7 and 8 of Isaiah. These are chapters that are also found in the book of Mormon in second Nephi, 17 and 18. And there is a wonderful but somewhat confusing mix of history and prophesy in these chapters. Terry, why don’t you tell us a little bit about the historical setting for these chapters?
Terry: Well, what’s happening is the nation of Israel and the nation of Syria have combined and they’re threatening Judah and the king of Judah Ahaz is very concerned about this. And so, Isaiah goes and counsels them and, basically tells him not to worry. And he asked… Isaiah offers to give them a sign. Isaiah or Ahaz refuses but then Isaiah gives him the sign anyway. And I think I’d like to share a statement by Brother Oaks about this, and this illustrates his statement. This chapters 7 and 8 illustrate this statement very well. He says, the book of Isaiah contains numerous prophecies that seem to have multiple fulfillments. One seems to include the people of Isaiah’s day or the circumstances of the next generation. Another meeting often symbolic seems to refer to the events in the reading of time when Jerusalem was destroyed, and her people scattered after the crucifixion of the son of God, still another meeting or fulfillment of the same prophecy seems to relate to the events attending the second coming of the Savior. The fact that many of these prophecies could have multiple meanings, underscores the importance of our seeking revelation from the Holy Ghost to help us interpret them. As Nephi says the words advisory are plain unto all those who are filled with the spirit of prophecy.
Vic: So, we’ve got here in these chapters, material that people in Isaiah’s day could relate to, yet those that were listening to the Savior Peter or reading the epistles of Paul, they could connect to some of this because they could see where, if some of it had fulfillment in their time. And then those of us in the last days. Now, if we go back here, let’s just concentrate first of all, a little bit on the time of Isaiah. You said Syria and Israel, the northern tribes there were attacking Judah, why would they do that? I mean particularly, why would Israelites attack fellow Israelites in Judah? Is there any logic to this invasion?
Ray: Actually, there is.
Ann: I’m just going to read what it said. “Let us invade Judah, let us tear it apart and divide it among ourselves.”
Vic: But why, why would they want to do it. I mean, other than dispossession. Is there something more?
Ray: The bully on the block, right now is Assyria and they’re not just a bully, they’re a menacing bully and their shadow is looming over Israel in all the kingdom, it’s looming over Syria. And Syria and Damascus, Syria and Israel, have formed a coalition to try and stop Assyria from its movement. They need Judah to help them.
Vic: So this is where maybe you’re looking at your maps in the back of your Bible would help if you can find Assyria in Mesopotamia also known as Babylon, Iraq today, they were expanding their empire, working their way towards Egypt and what stands in the way there are countries like Syria and Israel and then further to the South, Judah and of course Syria and Israel, about to be hit back, they sensed this coming. They’d like to get everybody in the region to put up a united front, but Judah doesn’t want to. And so, they try to force Judah to do this. Now, part of the complexity, it’s actually a fairly simple dialogue going on in here, in these first few versus. It’s just a different nomenclature is used for countries just like as reporters might be talking about our nation, they’ll talk about the United States, the government, the administration, the White House, I mean, you know, the White House doesn’t really talk, but it becomes a symbol. Well we have a similar thing here that shows the three primary countries involved, Syria, Israel, and Judah. What were the capital cities or regions? What were the dominant tribe or groups, who were the ruling houses there, so you’ll see although it sounds at first like he’s talking about seven, eight or ten different nations, it’s really just three of them, but using different names for these countries. Now Terry, you mentioned that Judah was getting beat, Ahaz was discouraged. The prophet was called to go to him and give him a message and offer him a sign. Why don’t we read here, would somebody read for us here a little bit about this particular sign starting in verse 10. Terry, would you read that for us?
Terry: Sure. “Moreover, the Lord spake again, unto Ahaz, saying, ask thee a sign of the Lord Thy God, ask it either the depth or in the height above, but Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord, and he said, hear ye now, oh house of David.” When he says house of David, he’s referring to Ahaz. He’s the king of Judah at this time.
Ann: And a descendant of David.
Terry: And a descendant of David, right. “Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and she will call his name Emmanuel.”
Vic: Ok, let’s stop right there. So, we’re asked not to go to the Lord and ask for a sign, but here the prophet is saying, King, ask for a sign, whatever you want to. And he said, well, I don’t want attempt, or as it says in the footnotes, I don’t want to test, I don’t want to try, I don’t want to bother the Lord. We understand from later material in the historical context, he actually had already apparently decided he wanted to form an alliance and he doesn’t want this prophet telling him how to run his kingdom, so he doesn’t want to bother the Lord and have this accountability. But in essence, Isaiah says, well, the Lord’s going to give you a sign anyway. “Behold, look, this maiden, this virgin shall conceive, she will bear a son and call his name Emmanuel.” Actually, it’s four little signs there. She will conceive, she will bear a son, she’ll call his name Emmanuel. And then it goes on to say that, before he’s old enough in verse 16, to know good from evil, in other words, before he reaches accountability, these two nations will be laid waste. So within about ten years from now, here’s a woman, she’ll have a son, this will be his name, and before the lad is old enough to know right from wrong, this problem will be taken care of. Now that’s the setting of it in Isaiah’s day, but how might it fit in with a setting, say some seven hundred years later.
Ann: And very obviously we read this thinking about Emmanuel, God with us, in Hebrew.
Vic: And what does that mean?
Ann: God with us. And so, we think of Christ in this setting, but obviously Ahaz wouldn’t have been thinking of Christ at all.
Vic: That’s right, and that wouldn’t have been a sign for him in his time.
Ann: No.
Vic: And of course, scholars like to emphasize that and maybe downplay the messianic fulfillment of it, but Matthew picks up on this and highlights it in his Gospel, and kind of directed to a Jewish community, how this maiden would have a son. And although she was commanded by the angel to actually call him Jesus, he was in reality, Emmanuel, as you said, God, this God in the flesh among us, with us.
Terry: Yeah, his whole existence fulfils that name, and in fact, he is God with us, and so…
Vic: There you go.
Ray: I think even in the historical context to your… here’s the sign, which is God telling Ahaz this threatening menacing force, I’ll take care of for you, in the same way, Isaiah is also saying that any threatening, or any threatening, menacing force in our lives, in a sense, call it spiritual death, whatever you’d like, Emmanuel is going to take care of that, God, Jesus who came to this earth to provide salvation…
Vic: That’s an important point, you’re doing right there what Nephi would encourage us to do, to take Isaiah and liken it to ourselves, but if we move to that third stage, of possible fulfillment of Isaiah’s words, this multiple fulfillment dimension of his prophetic calling, is there a particular way that we in the last days might need that kind of sign and comfort and reassurance that God is with us. How might that apply in our setting?
Ann: So, you’re thinking of Assyria like the threatening of the times that we live in and of course we live in these dreadful, chaotic times with imminent threats all around us all the time. I mean, even now as we think of terrorists, that’s a whole different kind of thing. It’s this immediacy that they felt. Assyria, not all countries are created equal in the Bible. When you read Moab, you read Edom, you read Syria, they’re not the menace that Assyria and Babylon, and at times Egypt are. So, if we think of those big empires and then these tiny little countries that are almost like city states trying to survive with the menace right on their doorstep. Well we have that same kind of menace today because of the world, because of the world situation.
Ray: You know what I think too, on a real practical level, when you looked at the life of the Savior in the New Testament, what was he doing? He was laying hands on, he was healing. He was lifting people from this stage to this stage. He was always making people better. And I think in the same way this Emmanuel, this God is with us, He is still with us. And he still has the ability to lay his hands on our marriage and make it better, on our family to make it better, on us to make us better, and he still does that. He’s still very much with us. He’s never left us actually.
Ann: Isaiah makes that so clear over and over again. If we withdraw, he is always there, he talks about his hand being stretched out, his anger not being turned away, but his hands stretched out still. And as you’re reading, you’ll come across that phrase over and over and over again. It’s there. He loves us. He stretches out his hand.
Vic: Yes, you’re right, and I’m sure we’ll talk about it because sometimes it’s a hand with judgment, sometimes it’s a hand of mercy, but his hand is always out there, and the invitation attached to it to come and receive his help and his guidance. Well are there any other ideas that you feel would be relevant for our viewers here? There’s one other point I’d like to highlight here in verse 8. Part of the promise here that we kind of lose sight of is, one of the scattering of Israel, particularly the tribe of Ephraim. There in verse 8, he talks about the head of Syria, or the capital city is Damascus and a head of the Damascus is Rezin, their king. But within three score and five years shall Ephraim, this dominant tribe of the northern kingdom, be broken, and it shall not be a people. So you get a sense that within sixty five years, in other words, within the lifetime of some of those listening to Isaiah, these northern tribes particularly Ephraim are going to start to not be a cohesive nation and people will start to scatter among the nations of the earth and so one point for us to remember with Isaiah is that he is the last great prophet to have all of Israel together. They had been with Jacob; his family had gone to Egypt and Moses had brought them out. Joshua brought them in the land, but right now here in the days of Isaiah, they start to scatter, and he even looks to the scattering. Well, let’s turn here to chapter 8. As we read in the heading of our LDS edition of this. It’s indicates that Christ shall be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense and some other insights here into this particular chapter. But when you start reading this chapter, what are probably some of the first things that come to mind or echoes or sounds that you hear you start reading chapter 8 of Isaiah?
Ann: Well you begin to learn about Isaiah’s family, the names of his children, Maher-Shala, Hash-buz, we discussed earlier how that would not be the kind of name that you’d want to give a child unless it really had a reason and in this case it did.
Vic: Are you just talking about the length or the meaning of it or both?
Ann: Both.
Vic: What does it mean, can you remember?
Ann: Yes. And in fact, look at your footnotes and it will tell you what it means. I think that’s a good thing for everybody to be able to do is look down and see is it on the footnote, what does it say?
Vic: “To speed to the spoil, he hastens to the prey.”
Ann: So, there’s going to be war.
Vic: Little pillager here is not the most complimentary name to give and that’s a very long name, in fact, for you trivia buffs? It’s the longest name in the Bible.
Ray: But you know, it’s an important name because as this young boy goes out on the street with it name, they’re going to be repeating it with that image in mind and who is it that’s going to speed to the spoil, well it’s going to be Assyria. He’s going to, number one, he’s going to devastate Syria and Israel in the process of sort of protecting Judah, but at the same time the Assyria is coming after Judah as well because of their wickedness and their iniquities.
Vic: They need to repent or they’re going to be humbled as well. That’s right.
Ann: In the chapter before we met Isaiah’s other son, when he goes with his father’s in Shearjashub with him when he goes to meet Ahaz, so now with the prophetess we’ve got the whole family together. At least the ones that we know.
Vic: So, he’s not just one person out there. We can always…. his wife and all of the names of his children.
Terry: It’s interesting. Those names are so symbolic. One of them is talking about the scattering and the other one is talking about the gathering, which are the two major themes of Isaiah’s writings.
Vic: Yeah, important point.
Ann: And Isaiah says, very straight up, plain to us, I am…”behold I am the children whom the Lord has given me, are for signs and for wonders in Israel, from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in Mount Zion.” So, he knew who he was, he knew who they were. It’s like if we know who we are, he knew that their names were important and that they were prophecies, that they would come true.
Vic: Now one term that shows up in verse 6 here that we often wonder about is this, this Shilowar, these waters of Shilowar speaking softly. Is he really speaking softly or hard here, Ray? What’s he doing here?
Ray: Sort of both. But I think what he’s saying to his people and really saying to us as well is that both Israel and Judah had made some choices. And what are the choices that they’ve made? They’ve refused to follow Christ, to accept Jehovah as their God, and know what he says to them verse 6, “for as much as this people refuseth the waters of Shilowar that goes softly, “that the waters of Shilowar here, that’s the imagery of Christ, He’s the living water, He’s the well of salvation and they go softly, and isn’t’ there something in there that’s just beautiful.
Ann: That is beautiful.
Ray: Softly, kind, tender.
Vic: And yet they reject it and are going off with these political alliances all and then here in verse 7, well, if they reject the gentle flowing waters, the soft water, what will I send against them, here, these waters of the river referring to the Euphrates when…those are great flood waters. I mean it brings boulders and trees out of these narrow gorges as it feeds down into Mesopotamia. And so instead of this gentle little spring, they get this torrent, up to the neck. I mean, you just, you know, if you’ve got this kind of torrent a water coming, it’s up to your neck, you’re moving here, you’ve got the message.
Ann: It’s a great example of the metaphors that he uses, you know, because he started out…and you use it for different things. Water can be soft and flowing or it can be frightening that you’re…I’m a swimmer and if I had water up to my neck in a flood, I’d be frightened to death. I know I could get on top of it as a swimmer, but most people are not swimmers and you get water to your neck…
Vic: And especially if there’s logs and debris and water that might hit you. Yeah. So very good swimmers would be terrified.
Ann: We’ve seen all those pictures of tsunami’s. So, we have an image to look at, when we think about what this metaphor that he’s using to teach us something.
Terry: And in Isaiah’s Day, this was literally fulfilled. Assyria comes out of the north, it destroys the nation of Israel, it destroys Syria and it comes right up to the gates of Jerusalem and they’re, just talking about water up to the neck.
Vic: How it looks like you’re about ready to go down, about ready to drown and you’re just barely preserved. Now, like the thing that we’ve talked about in the previous chapter, there is an all present one there. He will be with us, but we have different ways of connecting with them. And here’s another famous passage that’s oft quoted from this chapter. Terry, could you read verse 14 for us and help us try to understand this important verse.
Terry: “And he shall be for a sanctuary, but for a stone of stumbling and for stone of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” what that’s talking about is if there’s a kind of a dichotomy. On the one hand, the reward can be a stone on which we build our foundation, often there with the parable of the man who builds his house upon the sure place, the stone. On the other hand, if we reject his council, or refuse to obey his commandments, he becomes a stumbling block to us and can cause our downfall.
Vic: So, the same piece of granite there could be a stumbling stone that you trip on and fall, or it could be a building block that you build like as a step or a protective wall or something like that.
Ann: Like a house built on the rock.
Ray: In essence, the people that Isaiah’s talking to have a choice. It’s either build your cornerstone, on that solid rock of Christ or let that rock be that which you trip over because you will ultimately, if you fight against it.
Vic: Well, Ann if you were trying to summarize these two chapters in both their historical and prophetic setting with all these names and these kind of, sort of a historical overlay, but there was a deeper sort of spiritual level that we want to pull out of it. What would you say is the importance of these two chapters and why are they so significant?
Ann: I hope I can. That sounds wonderful. Tall order. Well, I think that political situation is a little mini showing what is Assyria is doing. It’s coming down to these three little countries who’ve decided or at least two of them decided they were going to fight and they’re going to stand against an Assyria, which was really kind of foolish. Assyria was so huge and so feared, Judah saying, no they wouldn’t, but at the same time King Ahaz making a deal with Assyria and then that was pretty much selling out the other two little countries, so they didn’t have to worry about that anymore. And then underlying all of this using these beautiful metaphors, talking to us about a king that can be dependent upon, the Lord himself, but we’re supposed to be depending upon that quiet water. There are times later in Isaiah where it’s as if God and the Assyrian King are buying…when they talk, they say our king can beat your king. And we know that’s foolishness, because the king of Israel was the Creator, God, was Jehovah. We also meet the family of Isaiah in these chapters, we learned that their names are prophecies and that’s significant. There’s going to be a gathering, but there will also be a return. And Isaiah calls his wife a prophetess. It’s a very interesting name. I had a student in one of my classes say the reason she’s called a prophetess is because the sons she bore were prophecies. So maybe that’s possible, but in some ways, I think we can think that he honored her by calling her that name. And she was the wife of a Prophet. And Isaiah was one of the great prophets. And I think as we study him even more, we’ll find out he was a compassionate, wonderful father. I mean he… all through there will be metaphors about childbirth that he would have nothing…he wouldn’t know that if he hadn’t sat at the bedside…they didn’t have bedsides sorry. Wrong cultural thing. He hadn’t sat and watched his wife give birth and this kind of sweetness and kindness and suffering over the sins of the people he’s declaring to them, and as he sees the consequence of their sins. You feel his good heart and I think these chapters introduce us to this man and his family and open up that for us and also show us that Assyria is going to be coming on strong and be a huge influence during all of Isaiah’s life. Isaiah is going to see the northern kingdom taken away. The first of the gathering of the scattering.
Vic: Yes, well you presented a beautiful but not a common view that we would have of Isaiah, of this kind of loving, fatherly, family man. We think of him as a stern kind of preacher on a stump, bringing them promising chastisement, and all that. But he did…he saw the big picture. He seemed to understand that as much as Israel and Judah were wicked and he could give some specific prophecies about timing of certain events that were going to be benchmark events in their history as far as the house of Israel is concerned. He could also see beyond that to the first coming and as we emphasize different ways that we might connect to it in preparation for the second coming of the Savior so that, we can appreciate why we might want to take a look at these twice, not only when we’re studying the Old Testament, but also when we’re studying the Book of Mormon. Thank you very much for your comments. It’s been a good discussion.
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